Curse

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

No, I'm saying that those who don't even recognize the cookie cutter builds as being good will have little to no chance of developing their own unique build. You have to start out mastering cookie-cutter stuff, then develop your own thing.

Again, most people are too ignorant to see why the typical triple chop axe bar is superior to their riposte mending hundred blades crap. If they're not even able to tell a good bar from a bad one, I can safely say yes, someone who realizes the cookie cutter bar is superior will be better than the fool who continues on with their shitty bars. They shouldn't be praised for copying bars, but that's a biased question. They should be praised for not being a complete retard who lives in their own world thinking he's good when he's not.

That's where you don't understand. There is no "flawless" build that beats all other builds. Builds are in a constant state of fluctuation, and keep changing as new synergies are found/created. Like I said before, the first step in creating a new build is to know why those cookie cutter builds are good. I play them, I embrace them. I also come up with unique hero synergies by modifying existing "cookie-cutter hero bars" to improve their effectiveness. If you want to talk about personal build creations, I was one of the ones who created and made popular the more recent wave of Melandru's resilience monks in RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

He's saying that creative builds do sometimes work, but 99% of the trash posted here does not. I would say a skilled player runs stuff that works, whether it's a new build or an old classic.

What you fail to realize is that this is not PVXwiki. All the knowledgeable posters here are capable of creating and tweaking their own builds. The difference between most of us and you is that we do not instantly throw out the collected knowledge of other players to fluff our own egos.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa..... Whoa. Ok, wtf. Do you even read the posts I type? Seriously.

1.) I do understand there are no flawless builds. I've been advocating that for, IDK, ever since this game came out. I phrased that question that way for a reason. I don't just type to see what all these silly letters look like on the screen. I understand it perfectly.

2.) I have never said that cookie cutter was not effective. Never. I have ALWAYS said that it's not the only option and the brain-less zombie wave that exists on this forum purely to mislead new players is quite irritating.

3.) How are the vet-players on this forum any more creative then anyone else? The build you guys advocate for each class is, not only the same throughout each of all of your posts, but is cookie cutter throughout all of GW. There is very little wiggle room. Most of the time it's like..."well, that build will work if your ok with a sucky build. if you want a build that doesn't blow use these exact 8 skills, everytime, all the time, or your a noob."

Flexible? lol, what a joke.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 03, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

For the majority, at least as example and experience, in order to get that 'maximum capacity' build, you still need to use the cookie cutter for easily 3/4ths of your build and even then, the elitists will still strike you down

Unfortunately, warriors are one of the least flexible classes available. They don't have much energy to spare, their attribute points aren't very forgiving, and they're basically required to have an attack skill chain, an anti-kite, an IAS, and a rez. If you're looking for a more flexible class, casters like mesmers, eles, and rits tend to have the most room for tweaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I'll admit, I've been guilty of it a few times for some PvE runs and for that I'm truly a sorry hypocrite. I'm thinking older skills should be buffed and the more popular skills be nerfed [oh wait, they're doing that already and still there's little to no progress

]

I think you're actually referring to a seperate issue here. There's a mindset among many of the duller PvE players that once you find one build you should never, ever change it or tweak it in any way. This leads to a proliferation of mending wammos, since it worked great in ascalon arena. This is also responsible for the insane love of tank+nuke in the elite missions. It's an old strategy imported from other MMOs that isn't that effective. These groups are far more likely to boot anyone who even slightly deviates from the holy trinity.

In organized PvP, builds are under strong selective pressure, so most players are unwilling to take weaker builds. However, I don't think I've played a single match that wasn't preceded by a bunch of last-minute tweaking. There isn't one great build that dominates everything, you change your builds to fit the talents of your group and the current meta. The templates you seem so opposed to are more of a good place to start, rather than the finalized godly build.

Racthoh · Mar 03, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miska Bow

I dont suck at pve and i read wiki before every mission, quest or dungeon. Therefore i always have a skill bar suited for what's up ahead.

Sage advice to be honest.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Owch, I'm feeling that one.

I still am reeling over the fact that the single utility skill on a 7 skill warrior cookie cutter gets whacked by many. [don't use spells, leave that to casters]...

Em, someone must have assumed I spam my utility skill perhaps? Yeah, like I really need to spam barbs on every foe I come across. What should I put in that skill slot besides that? Penetrating Chop?

People should probably calm themselves on what utility skills a warrior brings when most of the bar can kill quite readily.

I personally wouldn't be too rigid on an axe user who religiously brings Dismember on his skill bar. The guy likes to deep wound? Ok, he has a pretty good idea of what he's doing... *if not Eviscerate*

Also, I'd probably blow up in the face of any warrior NOT bringing deep wound. Deep wound is the ultimate condition that sets up instant kills. It's the reason I love Guild Wars warriors over any other Melee in every other RPG known to exist...

Nobody can prove to me that not bringing a deep wound on a warrior is good. So there shouldn't be a need to butt rape people who keep a general idea.

Probably why I should stop posting any form of PvP builds. It seems to shake some cages lol...

Tyla · Mar 03, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

PvP skill requirements:

IAS, Speed, 2-3 skills for spiking, interrupt, res sig, single utility [omg, so flexible, one skill...

]

Those aren't skills, they're decisions between what you can bring skill-wise.

The builds you posted were bad, anyway.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 03, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

3.) How are the vet-players on this forum any more creative then anyone else? The build you guys advocate for each class is, not only the same throughout each of all of your posts, but is cookie cutter throughout all of GW. There is very little wiggle room. Most of the time it's like..."well, that build will work if you're ok with a sucky build. if you want a build that doesn't blow use these exact 8 skills, everytime, all the time, or you're a noob."

Find me one post where a veteran player here advocates using the same 8 skills in every situation and never using anything else. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Finished?

Good. What you found is a collection of popular templates with utility slots. A decent number of builds that do not dictate all 8 skills.

I don't think the question should be "who is more creative". Creativity by itself takes no skill at all. As I said before, 8 random skills on a bar is completely unique and creative. What really matters is the ability to be creative while not sucking.

For fun, here's a screenie of my cookie cutter template folder. Oh noes, the diversity!

isamu kurosawa · Mar 03, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

3.) How are the vet-players on this forum any more creative then anyone else? The build you guys advocate for each class is, not only the same throughout each of all of your posts, but is cookie cutter throughout all of GW. There is very little wiggle room. Most of the time it's like..."well, that build will work if your ok with a sucky build. if you want a build that doesn't blow use these exact 8 skills, everytime, all the time, or your a noob."

Flexible? lol, what a joke.

When your limited by the game to 8 skills on a profession like warrior, a highly balanced class that takes strategy to play using skills that give strategic advantages (see anti-kite, ias, skills to kill with) then builds will tend to be very simmilar regardless.

The first challenge in the game is choosing your skills and attributes, once that is done it is up to how well the player uses those skills as well as working with his team to decide a winner.

Bobby2 · Mar 03, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

You Flail, I kite, you use Rush (IF you have the adren) and we're kinda back where we started, only your gas tank is a bit empty...

Quote:

or if you're a monk yourself, I know no monks who'd fear a warrior if the monk can't get KD'ed

Hence [skill]shock[/skill] and [skill]bull's strike[/skill] SURPRISE

Sab · Mar 04, 2008, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

3.) How are the vet-players on this forum any more creative then anyone else? The build you guys advocate for each class is, not only the same throughout each of all of your posts, but is cookie cutter throughout all of GW. There is very little wiggle room. Most of the time it's like..."well, that build will work if your ok with a sucky build. if you want a build that doesn't blow use these exact 8 skills, everytime, all the time, or your a noob."

Good players aren't against creativity, they're against bad builds. Learn to distinguish the two. Oh and bad players are like, "hey here is my awesome original non-wiki build i just made, it works against level 15 mobs so dont flame plz"

Scary Raebbit · Mar 04, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

God damn unique snowflakes.
Original doesn't always equal good.
Sums up the topic.

isamu kurosawa · Mar 04, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

one member of our alliance likes to be "creative" with builds. We entertain his ideas from time to time but they always end with a failure.

Here are 3 builds for necro created by people in my alliance. One was created for a specific area, one to make a bad skill better and to fight the great destroyer and one was created by our creative friend.

Lets see if you can point out the creative member of our alliance.
-----
Build 1 - N/Rt

sr 12+1
blood 12+1+1

life siphon
dark pact
blood of the aggressor
signet of agony
angorodons gaze
vampiric spirit
masochism
death pact signet
-----
build 2 -N/Mo

curses 8+1+2
soul reaping 8+2
prot 12

martyr
plague sending
extinguish
dismiss condition
defile flesh
signet of lost souls
purifying veil
resurrect.
-----
build 3 - N/x

death 12+1+1
soul reaping 12+1

rising bile
putrid bile
icy veins
necrosis
finish him
putrid explosion
consume corpse
resurrection signet.

Bobby2 · Mar 04, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Lets see if you can point out the creative member of our alliance.

-----
build 3 - N/x

death 12+1+1
soul reaping 12+1

rising bile
putrid bile
icy veins
necrosis
finish him
putrid explosion
consume corpse
resurrection signet.

Any build with Finish Him! is pure, crystallized win. No challenge.

[Rhiannon] · Mar 04, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Creativity by itself takes no skill at all. As I said before, 8 random skills on a bar is completely unique and creative. What really matters is the ability to be creative while not sucking.

Randomness doesn't equal creativity. Even in the most abstract forms of art there's usually some method in the madness.

To quote dictionary.com:

creativity: "the ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods, interpretations, etc.; originality, progressiveness, or imagination"

In general, the problem most 'veterans' have on these forums is interpreting 'meaningful' and getting away from the 'min/max' ideology. A build could be meaningful as it's fun to play, optimized or not. It could even be meaningful as it's NOT optimal, presenting more challenge and satisfaction on success.

What a boring game this would be if everyone was cast from the same mold.

bungusmaximus · Mar 04, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

I don't give an ass about creative builds, I care about creative gameplay.
The creative options you have with a standard 'boring' burning arrow template are almost unlimited.
I rather play that then a 'creative' build that's only capable of doing one single thing, good example are sin combo's, it's more fun to think them up then to actually play them.

LightningHell · Mar 04, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

A build could be meaningful as it's fun to play, optimized or not. It could even be meaningful as it's NOT optimal, presenting more challenge and satisfaction on success.

I agree. However, what people seem to be talking about here seems to be something other than this.

Knight O Cydonia · Mar 04, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

This is a funny alternative to W/E

Fear my smite!

Squishy ftw · Mar 04, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Funny, perhaps.
Good, no.

And on topic.
You can post any build you like imo, but don't expect people to worship you over it when the build simply sucks.

As others already said, chances of comming up with a new and good build now, 3 years or so after gw's release, are very, very small. Simply because pretty much everything has already been tried, and proven to be bad compared to the known, popular builds.

But ofcourse, nobody can stop you from running whatever you like in your own instance of the game. Just don't post your crap on here.

moriz · Mar 04, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

yes, cookie cutter is not the only option.... it's just the best option most of the time, even with "counters" taken into account.

Crom The Pale · Mar 05, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

What it all boils down to is this, there is a set number of skills and thus a set number of builds. If you intend your char to have a focused purpose then there is a finite number of builds that can achieve this.

A warrior strives to kill foes.
There are 3 ways to do this.

1: Deal a large amount of damage as fast as possible.
2: Deal a moderate amount of damage over a prolonged period of time.
3: Deal damage while preventing target from healing via knockdowns and interupts.

Once you pick the method your going to fucus on you have a set number of builds that will allow you to acomplish this task. Within those builds you have options. Several skills that can do very similiar things but vary based on cost or time or dmg. Blending those skills together correctly is what makes for a good build. You could have two builds that do almost identical dmg but one might be more efficient than the other. For an example one build using Power Attack(+36dmg for 5energy) and another using Exicutioners Strike(+40dmg for 8adrenaline). Power attack recharges faster but costs energy, which can run out fast. However if you've got a balanced build that takes that into account then it might out perform Exicutioners. If the build is out of balance then it becomes unuseable and your build fails.

If you wish to ignore the numbers and create a totaly new build that does not follow the proven math of what skills work best together then you can create something totaly unique, but ultimately weaker then the so lamented "cookie cutter" build.

In PvP using a less than perfect build grants your opponent an advantage that they will do thier very best to capitalize upon.
In PvE using a less than perfect build will slow your parties progress, sometimes imperceptably, and possibly cause more deaths even a total party wipe.

And lastly the reason people continue to post builds is because everyone likes a little pat on the back every now and then. It's human nature to crave both attention and praise, some will even take the attention if it comes in the form of negative critisims or arguments.

arsie · Mar 05, 2008, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Besides the fact that quite a number of people use cookie cutter builds, it is that there are a few brighter sparks here who have actually tried and used them, and found them to be efficient, if not the most efficient, for its task.

There's two reasons to tweak a cookie cutter build, one is if you think you can squeeze a little more efficiency out of the build with your own bright idea, or if you are adapting the build to your own playing style.

If you tried and failed to squeeze more efficiency out of a build, oh well, its a learning experience, you now understand the build better. If you're adapting it to your own style, who cares if you're called a noob or you're not extremely efficient.